Why Founders Get Stuck & How To Get Free with Scott Ritzheimer

Join renowned entrepreneur Scott Ritzheimer for a deep dive into the evolutionary stages of entrepreneurship. 

Discover the crucial phases of business growth, the mindsets that set successful founders apart, and why earning your CEO title matters.

This episode delves into:

• The founder's journey: From unexpected beginnings to navigating challenges.
• Unveiling the patterns of success: Learn from inspiring stories and analogies.
• Earning your CEO title: Understand the responsibilities and transitions of leadership.
• Growth, adaptability, and resilience: Develop the mindset to thrive on the path.

Plus, explore Scott's free guide, "Founder's Evolution," and learn how to:

• Align your vision with your business stage: Achieve growth with clarity and purpose.
• Master essential tasks: Focus on what truly matters for progress.
• Embrace the journey: Find joy and fulfillment in your entrepreneurial saga.

Whether you're a budding entrepreneur or a seasoned founder, this episode equips you with the knowledge and strategies to thrive. Tune in and unlock your full potential!

Enjoy!

If you'd like to lead your business or nonprofit to Predictable Success without feeling exhausted, overwhelmed, or out of your depth, then the plan is surprisingly simple.

Step 1. Download your FREE copy of the Founder's Evolution.

Step 2. Find out what stage you are in, and what your essential strategy is

Step 3. Stop feeling like you "should" be doing more, and start doing what you know will create the success you want.

You can get your FREE copy of the Founder's Evolution at https://www.scalearchitects.com/founders

Links:
Roberto on Instagram http://www.instagram.com/robertorevillalondon
Tailoring Talk on Instagram http://www.instagram.com/tailoringtalkpodcast
Tailoring Talk on YouTube https://youtube.com/@robertorevillalondon

Credits
Tailoring Talk Intro and Outro Music by Wataboy on Pixabay
Edited & Produced by Roberto Revilla
Connect with Roberto head to https://allmylinks.com/robertorevilla
Email the show at tailoringtalkpodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

What's the very first title that founders put on their business card before they've even started their business? Founder and CEO. Right, you don't actually step into a CEO role until stage five of the process. That means that there are five massive, distinct transitions that founders go through and they don't even know what happens.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Welcome to the K-Lin talk show with your host, roberto Rivera, the spokesman, taylor Metzver-Steiner, and owner of Roberto Rivera London Custom Clothing and Footwear. I activate your superpowers through the clothing I create and the conversations on this podcast to form me self-starters and creators, to learn about their journeys while they share valuable lessons to help you be the best you can be. Please support the show by subscribing, and it helps so much if you take a few seconds to leave a rating and a review. Today we're diving into the heart of entrepreneurial success with a guest who's not just theorized about starting and scaling businesses, but has actually done it.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Before the age of 35, he propelled nearly 20,000 new businesses and nonprofits into existence. Recognizing the challenges and unpredictability that founders face, he established scale architects. Here he unlocks the potential for predictable success by focusing on the one essential strategy that makes all the difference From the founders evolution map. Our guest offers clarity and direction to those at the helm, ensuring they not only grow but thrive sustainably. Whether you're trying water, looking to scale beyond your current success or planning for a future without you at the range, today's conversation promises some invaluable insights. Tailoring talkers. Let's welcome a true navigator of business success, scott Rettheimer. Welcome to the show, scott, how are you?

Speaker 1: 2:06

I'm doing great. I'm just very excited about this conversation. I had this moment of like oh shoot, when I realized like I'm on with a real tailor here. You know, like my little suit. I got to up my suit game if we meet again. But now I'm really excited for this conversation. Love, love, love, entrepreneurship. It's just been such a big part of my life, my own journey, and my favorite people in the world are the founders and owners and folks that are out there making it happen.

Speaker 2: 2:39

Because there's a difference between founders and leaders, like leaders of divisions within organizations, corporate leaders and then founders. And that's quite an important distinction for you, because you deliberately kind of engage, talk to coach and help founders. Can you just start by giving us your definition of the difference between the two and also correct me anytime that I screw up and I get things right?

Speaker 1: 3:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is great. Yes, I think they're very, very different, but not necessarily in the ways that a lot of people think, because when you look at a lot of the classic founder traits their risks, taking their innovative, creative, big idea thinkers you'll find a lot of those as entrepreneurs inside of large organizations. Those visionary type leaders are not inherently founders. But what's so different about the founders journey is actually it's kind of curious. It is that as we progress through this journey, the different stages, the different milestones, the different challenges we face are almost completely invisible. What do I mean by that?

Speaker 1: 3:59

So take the journey of someone rising up through the ranks inside a large organization super talented person, great ideas and how do you start at the beginning? You start at the front line. You get stuff done right Like you have to be a star player and you do that. You do it long enough, you do it well enough. You get recognized and they think this guy's got some potential, this lady's got some potential. Let's elevate her up and put her in a management position and there are entire podcasts dedicated to that one thing teaching star players to become managers and it's a hard transition to make, but the advantage that that person has over the founder, who's going to face the same challenge, is that there's a new title to go with it.

Speaker 1: 4:48

There's some type of external validation, there's a new role. Right, there's something to say hey, the game has changed and now it's time for you to adapt. It's crystal clear. Still hard, but it's clear. And so the advantage that folks have as they're rising through the ranks is that each one of these new challenges tends to come with a new role or a new division or a new department. There's something to externally validate why it's hard, but for founders it doesn't exist at all. Right, what's the very first title that founders put on their business card before they've even started their business? Founder and CEO, right? You don't actually step into a CEO role until stage five of the process. That means that there are five massive, distinct transitions that founders go through, and they don't even know it happens.

Speaker 2: 5:43

Yeah, it's so funny. I was just thinking about my own clients, because I've been doing this for like 20, 21 years. I know I don't look that old, but I have worked with clients who now are at CEO level in big corporate organizations I mean you're talking multinationals, ftse 100s and all that sort of thing and they started off as competent, mid-level people who have grown through the ranks. Whenever I have conversations with them, when we talk about our business journeys and where we're at and how the last year's been, and you review all that kind of stuff, I'll be like, yeah, we had our best year ever and it was pretty awesome. I'm looking forward to trying to build on that this year. And we need to maybe start hiring some people and so on.

Speaker 2: 6:34

And they're like, yeah, I just got promoted. So I'm like, oh, what does that mean? And they're like, well, it means that someone else kind of got hand and then I inherited all their people and so I've got an extra 200 people to look after. And I'm like, oh, cool, and how many managers do you have between you and those 200 people so that you can delegate out and so on. And sometimes the answer is I've got none. And sometimes people are. The answer is I've got some and I'm kind of thinking On one hand that sounds pretty awesome, it also sounds like it's going to be pretty challenging, maybe a bit stressful, but then they've still got that kind of safety net.

Speaker 2: 7:14

And I for people listening to the audio and quote unquote in its got here, they've still got that safety net. In comparison to me, where everything is on my fricking shoulders, whether I've got five, 10, 15, 20, 100, 200, 300 people or not, I don't have that safety net. Basically, everything rises and falls on me. I don't have a base salary to fall back on, I don't get paid unless I'm actually producing, whereas for these guys, they can go through peaks and troughs and generally their mortgage payments, et cetera, are okay. And it is really, I guess, that I'm saying this in a really convoluted way, but I think what I'm trying to boil this down to in essence is the difference between a founder and a corporate leader, let's call them. Is that element of risk, that element of you're always, as a founder, like walking this tightrope across the whatever that thing is in the Nevada desert, the Grand Canyon, that's it. That's what it can feel like at times, like you're suspended over the Grand Canyon and with nothing but like 50 millimeters of red between you and the abyss below.

Speaker 1: 8:31

The French root for the word entrepreneur is to go between oh there you go Right it's those who go between.

Speaker 1: 8:37

It's exactly that. So, yes, there's something about the entrepreneurial journey. Now, what I would say is that this is most poignant in the earlier stages, because there are founders who reach the latter stages of their evolution and they've got a lot more momentum behind it. So a lot of what you're describing is actually the organizational inertia that's around them. So when you've got one person, you have a bad day, you're sick, nothing gets done. If you have five people on your team, you're probably doing about as much as the rest of them combined. So if you get sick, a little bit gets done. But what happens is that does change. That. Dynamic changes over time as we move into higher levels of it. But an inherent separator in the early days what separates? Let me go back.

Speaker 1: 9:31

The very first stage of this process of becoming an entrepreneur, becoming a founder and kickstarting the whole path is what I call stage one, the dissatisfied employee. Right now, you may not be an employee, but there's this level of dissatisfaction that builds up that makes the crazy idea of actually starting your own business seem worth it. And there's a lot of folks out there, though, that are dissatisfied. There's a lot of employees out there that are dissatisfied, that have no business being entrepreneurs. So just because you're dissatisfied does not make you an entrepreneur. What makes you an entrepreneur is to be able to take that risk and go between the dissatisfaction where you are and the dream of where you're going. And so what you find in founders is just an inherent capacity for risk. In fact, in a lot of founders there's almost a need for risk to really get sharp.

Speaker 1: 10:31

Right, I remember after COVID hit, I was coaching with a founder. I was a co-founder in a business and he said to me he's like Scott I don't really know how to say this, because a lot of people are experiencing really tough stuff but I have never been sharper, I have never been more on my game because like everything was on the line Now it wasn't that this guy's business was amazing and like everything was wonderful for him. In fact, they had lost 80% of their business. But there's just this when the pressure rises, it brings the best out of many entrepreneurs, and what you'll see the negative side of that, and a self-destructive pattern is that some visionaries will call them, will become arsonists. They'll go and set stuff on fire just to amp the pressure up so that they can feel again, so that they can get sharp again, and it's not a very helpful pattern. But you're right, it's one of those distinguishing characteristics.

Speaker 2: 11:31

Yeah, I want to just go back a little bit now because you and I have literally jumped off the cliff here, because I'd like to get to know you and help our audience get to know you and your background a little bit better. But you and I just kind of hug each other hello, like okay, cool, let's jump off and get on with this thing. But let's just go back a little bit, because I mentioned in the intro that you are a founder yourself. You've been through this entire journey. You've experienced all of the highs and lows of the journey.

Speaker 2: 12:05

So you're not just coming up at it as someone who's read a few books and then is kind of coaching people and so on and talking about it and written a book and all the rest of it, but you have lived and breathed it. Just take me back to your kind of journey. So I'm guessing college was involved somewhere and then you got into the corporate world, maybe before you started, or have you just been, did you stop, you know, with your own business? And then, because I've got some people that I've interviewed on this podcast that just look at me and they're just like, I've never been employed, I've always been self-employed. No one's ever stopped superhero origin story please.

Speaker 1: 12:47

I've had a couple of part-time jobs, so it's about as far as I guess. No, I mean, there's so many ways we could go with this. I have a really weird history. So I accidentally dropped out of high school with a 4.0. I skipped college until I was actually in my late 20s. I moved to Atlanta, georgia, right after I got married on my 20th birthday, on little more than a whim, and I needed a part-time job to pay the bills. And so I just I met a guy, you know, I met a guy who was looking for help and I started in the mailroom of this little small business. It was around, you know, 13 people at the time. So just because I knew him it was the warm body approach to hiring, you know, like, do you breathe? Yes, okay, you can start tomorrow. And so I started there just answering emails that came in. It was really all I was doing and doing tech support for folks on software I'd never seen before and that was training, you know, as they just pick up the phone and figure it out. So about three months after I get hired, he sells the business and does an owner finance deal and sold to a company, and one of his criteria was I want you to keep everyone on staff you know as much as possible. So there was a way out of that. But the gentleman's agreement was we're gonna try and keep you know the team going Well.

Speaker 1: 14:05

I watched the new owners systematically but unintentionally destroy the company over about a year and a half and it's one of those interesting stories where there's no villain in the story. It's not like there was someone that was trying to make this not work. Everyone was trying to make it work. The previous owner wanted to make it work but wasn't getting paid. The new owners wanted to make it work but weren't making money and were paying out of pocket. Their existing business started to suffer.

Speaker 1: 14:35

We went from 13 people in a growing office and this exciting company to two and a half people, and I was the half. It was just. It was a really, really hard time and throughout all this I'm the low man on the totem pole. I'm still working. I'm technically part time, but I was working 40 hours a week and I mean, even at that level for me, just how hard and how intense the small business world is. I was having stomach ulcers as this part time guy in a company because it was just so bad, it was just.

Speaker 1: 15:11

And again, I learned more in that, you know, 15, 16 months than I did, almost infinitely more in that 16 months than I did when I went back to business school and double majored about 10 years later. And a lot of what I learned was what not to do, how not to build a company that was solely dependent on its owner, how not to manage, how not to think about overhead, how not to over invest in systems, and so, long story short, they give the previous owner a call. New owners call the previous owner and say we're done, we've done everything we can. The two and a half employees thing isn't working, we're out, we're gonna declare bankruptcy. If you want it, you can have. It was kind of the thing. So the previous owner drove up, took a U-Haul van up to pick up like the last two computers that were working, you know, and the desk chair with like all the padding worn out of the middle, like that's what was left of this one's really cool company. And again, it wasn't for the new owners trying to be difficult. They wanted it to succeed more than anyone. It just didn't work. So on his drive up there, he calls me, he tells me what's going on and he said will you help me relaunch this thing? Will you come on as an owner? Will you help me relaunch it? I think we can make it work.

Speaker 1: 16:43

Well, the missing piece of this puzzle is that this was September 2008.

Speaker 1: 16:48

It was not not a great time to start a business.

Speaker 1: 16:53

Now, the somewhat fortunate part of all of this was that it was early September 2008, so we didn't know what we were getting into.

Speaker 1: 17:00

Otherwise we never would have said yes in the first place.

Speaker 1: 17:03

But our first few months my introduction to being a founder was the stock market plummeted 32% and you know, one of the glorious parts about being in a small business is, even when the market goes down, you're so small that there's so much room still to grow.

Speaker 1: 17:24

And when you just take that as an advantage, not as a disadvantage, but say we've got nothing to lose, let's go, you know, that was our idea in our motto during that time, and we actually turned the thing around. We paid off a bunch of debt that had been incurred, we've completed a bunch of work for clients that had not gotten done, and we just started to accelerate slowly but surely. Now we didn't get paid for a while, but about six months in we were able to start taking a very small salary and we were hiring back team members and from there just started this really exceptional and extended growth phase. But it's one of those experiences that's not most people's introduction to entrepreneurism, right, but it's one of those experiences that you would never ask for but once it's happened, you would never trade it for the world.

Speaker 2: 18:13

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I remember 2008, being quite young and not really interested in current affairs and so on. I probably got through that period just on the bank because we had got a discounted employees left where we'd been for a while and then decided we were going to go do it better for ourselves and my clients were like you know, we're in the middle of a credit crunch right now. This is the worst time for you to be going on your own starting a business. And I was just like I don't know what you're talking about. What's a credit crunch? Is it some form of cereal like captain crunch? And they thought I was just joking and making light of it. But I kind of genuinely, I was kind of aware that there was something bad going on, but I wasn't like fully kind of immersed in it, which is pretty much how I live my life actually, because I can't control any of that stuff. So you just think I've got nothing to lose. I just got to get on with my deal and get on with it and we did okay. So if we take, I know a lot of my listeners on both sides of the pond are solo-preneurs who are trying desperately to raise the level up their game. At the beginning of every year it's the same conversation yeah, last year was okay, or last year was so good, and this year I'm going to do this and I'm going to do this. And then when we get 12 months, fast forward 12 months, the story is still the same.

Speaker 2: 19:46

I've been guilty of that as well. You know, some people have described their journey as being like a game of snakes and ladders. Some people get to square 12 and then immediately hit that snake and get back to square three and they never feel like they can get past that. Some people get all the way up the board and then they hit that long one and come all the way back down. Is there really a formula to this? Because for a lot of people, you know, if you said no, there's actually. You know, there's a formula that underpins all of this and if you just kind of figure it out and stick with it, you will get there. They just look at you and be like are you absolutely kidding? Because I've tried everything and nothing seems to stay.

Speaker 1: 20:32

Yeah, I stopped short of saying there's a formula because in general I don't believe in things fatalistically right, and that shows up in two ways. One I don't think you can kind of, like you know, pull the slot machine the right way and the business gods will shine upon you, right, like it's deeper than that. And the same token, I don't think there are arbitrary limits that people can never surpass, right? The flip side of it is folks will think, oh, I'm just, I guess all I'll ever be is an entrepreneur, a solopreneur, right, I don't believe that's a wiring issue. And so while there's no magic, you know it's going to handle it all for you and there's no guarantee of ultimate success, there are patterns that if you follow those patterns, your odds of success go up exponentially. And if you ignore those patterns, it snakes and ladders until you run out of steam. And so what I've done and you mentioned it earlier we helped my team and I helped around 20,000 organizations, start businesses and nonprofits. And when you see something happen that many times in the startup world, you see a lot of failures, right, you see a lot of folks that just don't make it not necessarily catastrophic, but it's like, hey, we gave it our best shot. It didn't work and you see a lot of successes. We were about 10 years in it. We'd been doing it long enough that you know several of our organizations were some of the fastest growing in the world, both in the business and the nonprofit communities.

Speaker 1: 22:14

And what happened for me it was just this wonderful opportunity that couldn't even dreamed of creating, but the ability to sit right in the front row and seeing that happen at scale. I started to recognize patterns and consistencies among those who made it and those who didn't, and so I firmly believe there are patterns that govern success. I don't think they guarantee success, but if you try to ignore those patterns, it gets so much harder, and so there's always exceptions to the rule. Right, there's always things, but when you look at it the general theme you get the true story of the stages that they went through, the journey that they faced. It's actually the same thing every time, and I struggled to believe that.

Speaker 1: 22:59

As I was kind of formulating my ideas around it, I was like, can that? Is that really true? Because I was there, like I felt how awful it was. I had a lot of people tell me it was simple and I lost more money on their advice than I ever did on my own right. So I had kind of bought those lines before and been burned by it, and it actually took me a while to really commit to what is now the Founders Evolution Model, because I just wanted to know it was true.

Speaker 1: 23:25

Right, I just wanted to know it was true, and it wasn't until I recognized that the same pattern that I had seen in these journeys of all these different founders the same pattern I had to walk through myself actually is the exact same pattern that exists in the core root of the way we've told stories for thousands of years, something Joseph Campbell calls the hero's journey. And there are these different stages. Some of them are glorious, some of them are really challenging. And as I recognize that same pattern in all these stories from thousands of years ago, the biggest was Epic Tales was actually playing out in real time in the Founders I was working with. That's when I realized no, there's actually a pattern here. This is bigger than just Founders, but this is what it looks like for Founders.

Speaker 2: 24:17

I was really, really smiling there as Scott was saying that, because a few episodes ago I interviewed Dr Disney and that conversation was all about how the hero's journey and how a lot of what we go through, not just in business but in life in general, is pretty much like those tales from thousands of years ago. The actual kind of root of the hero is very, very similar to what we have to go through in our own lives. So, no, I absolutely love that and I can see I mean you can see why I teed you up for that one quite nicely right, because seeing that many businesses and working alongside them and seeing the failures and successes, you're absolutely 100% guaranteed you're going to start seeing the patterns that exist on both sides of it, not just the failures, the successes, but the failures as well. So no wonder you were able to take all of that let's call it data and then kind of start to sort of formulate the map that then becomes the Founders evolution. Where did the kind of inspiration come to actually stop putting that into pages?

Speaker 1: 25:35

Yeah, one of the things that happened for me as I was in what I call Stage 4, the Disillusion Leader. That stage forces you to go out and find help right, much like the hero's journey. You need a guide. The hero does not have what it takes to succeed on their own. They need someone to help show them away. Many, many Founders will find themselves at that point, maybe not hiring a coach, but might be a mentor, might be someone inside the organization. They need someone outside of them to help them tackle it, and so that had me in this process of searching. I read a lot of business books, we applied a lot of stuff and it helped, but it didn't really solve the problem. We hired a few coaches, lost a million and a half dollars following their advice, and it left me in this place where I felt like I was completely on my own. Now I had a great team with me, so let me say we were completely on our own.

Speaker 1: 26:28

If we couldn't figure this thing out in front of us, it wasn't going to happen, and at this time we're running a multi-million dollar business. From the outside, it's like what are you complaining about? Right, it should be wonderful, but it felt like we were dying inside. Right, we could grow revenue we had that figured out but we couldn't keep any of it. Our profit margin kept falling every year and even more than that. The internal frustration was at an all-time high. It felt like we couldn't do anything right. It felt like we'd have this simple conversation and walk away with two completely different understandings of what happened. Everything was just off, and you kind of add to that the isolation of well, we tried to bring help in and they couldn't figure it out. It's like, well, what do you do?

Speaker 1: 27:19

And so I was actually listening to a podcast like this and a guy, I guess from your side of the pond originally. His name is Les McEwen. He started talking about this idea on the podcast and it's so boring to think about, but it's unbelievably powerful. He started talking about this idea of business life cycle stages and I get it. I almost fell asleep just saying that right now. But the way he was able to articulate how they feel, how they show up I thought the guy had a camera in my office. I was like there's no way he could possibly know this about my organization. It was the very first time I ever actually felt like I was on a map, that my business wasn't just heading out into the wild unknown, that someone knew what the route looked like, and so I went out.

Speaker 1: 28:09

I got his book and it basically goes through the seven stages that businesses and nonprofits in fact go through. It talks about this stage called white water that we were in and give us a simple five step strategy to get out Now. It was simple to understand. It was hard to do, right, there are a lot of tough conversations. There are a lot of really tough decisions, but knowing what those steps were and in what order to take those steps gave us the confidence that we needed to radically transform our business. We tripled our bottom line in a single year and in going through that process, learning that, yes, there are people outside that help, yes, there is a way of looking at these challenges from a stage perspective, a when perspective. That's what started and initiated this journey for me so fast forward.

Speaker 1: 28:59

I ended up selling that business. I was like, what am I going to do next? And I realized I want to help folks get through that really challenging period that I did. What better way to do it than using the model that I got through it, and so I chatted with Les. He ended up mentoring me, brought me into a program where I used his model. And this is the direct answer to your question. In working with organizations, on the stage the organization was in, I realized one of the defining factors for what stage the business was in was how the founder was showing up or how they weren't showing up. And I remembered all those stories of founders from my previous job and that's when I started thinking, okay, there's something to this. I think there's stages here. I think there's a model. If I can do what Les did for organizations, if I could do that for founders, those two together would be about as close to that magical formula as you can get. That was the inspiration, yeah no, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 30:04

And imagine that you've come across a lot of founders who needed saving from themselves as well, because that happens a lot. They get this burst of energy and then they run and run and run, but they're actually just using that energy and keeping the roundabout spinning, as in keeping their business spinning, and they're wearing all these different hats sales, marketing, et cetera, customer service, et cetera, et cetera. They've got the kind of plan worked out for how they're going to start to scale and so on, but then they just burn out and then they have to kind of start all over again, kind of pick themselves up, and then you know it's like they can't go straight to the plan. They've got to make sure that all the other stuff is going. And then someone says, well, why don't you start hiring people to start doing that stuff? And they're like well, I can't hire anyone until I've generated enough regular revenue and profit so that I can start paying those people.

Speaker 2: 31:03

What's the stage where you come in, roll your sleeves up and sit alongside him and say, right, okay, this is what we're going to do to kind of help these people to get, because the will is there, right, it's just that the I don't know if it's skill, energy, whatever just isn't, or it keeps failing. And also, I apologise, my bangles have just decided to join the conversation as well. Can you not go back to the ladder that you were at when Scott and I were having our pre-tort please? One of my pets said I've got four flying around here, two dogs and two cats, I'm so sorry. And she's now not moving and she's blocking my light. Scott, I'm sorry, continue.

Speaker 1: 31:43

Yes. So typically where I do most of my work is in stage four. I call it the disillusioned leader, or stage it's very interesting, the cat likes it too or stage three, which I call the reluctant manager. But what the problem you're dialing into is this massive, massive trap in stage two. I call stage two the star player, but less identified pretty early on and I've been able to kind of build on it.

Speaker 1: 32:09

The main problem that happens for solo pre-noirs is they get stuck in something called the artist and trap, and you described it perfectly. Right. I've got this great idea, I'm going to go do it, and you're off to the races. Or, oh, I need to sell something. I'm going to go and focus on sales and oh, now I got to go do something. And so now I got to go do it. Oh, now I got to sell again, right, and it's just this hamster wheel of back and forth between visioning and doing, selling and fulfilling and all the other stuff that we're responsible for.

Speaker 1: 32:42

Here's what you have to decide. You've got to decide if you really have a vision, if your vision demands something else, right, because if you're okay being a solo pre-noar, for example, if you love tailoring and just want to do it with high end clients and have wonderful relationships and make good money on it, then stop beating yourself up over not being something else Right. One of the things that we do especially founders who are connected is we start to borrow what success looks like from other people instead of defining what success looks like for us. So the very first thing I'll do anytime I work with any founder is to say where's this thing going, right? What's your vision for the future of it? Not just like what would be cool, but like what's your vision for what do you want to see this organization become? Do you really want to build a business or do you just really want to do wonderful work and get paid well for it?

Speaker 1: 33:43

And the reason why that's important is because there are two ways to grow. The first way is to just get better. At this stage you're in right. Get better at mastering, balancing the selling and the doing. Get the basic rhythms in place that you need to not run the risk of running dry. Recognize what your constraints are and just dial down and work within them right, and so we can get better at this stage that we're in, or we can do the work to get to the next stage.

Speaker 1: 34:18

But that next stage it's not an easy one, right? The next stage, we're talking about the move from stage two to stage three. It does not make anything easier, right? That's not quite true, but there are a lot of things that get a lot harder in stage three. And so if you don't have the conviction that growing through that stage is necessary, that's where that snakes and ladders thing comes in is you're just growing because you think you need to grow? You're not growing because you have a conviction that that's what your organization needs to become? That's one place. Another place that we experience the snakes and ladders is we don't recognize the signs that the stage has changed. And, again, because for most founders they're largely invisible until you have something like the roadmap I provide in the book, that's actually pretty hard to do. There's a lot of guessing and checking and that's a painful process.

Speaker 2: 35:13

Yeah, that's so. You know I'm going to say it's profound, but it's so kind of sensible when you think about it. I think a lot, of a lot of solopeners when they get to I think you called it earlier the whitewater stage, where they kind of feel like they need to then get extra help. So you know whether it is a mentor or they hire a coach or they join a networking organization that is full of other founders, people that are at different stages of the journey that they can look up to or look alongside at, and they get faced with those questions when you know either they're being coached or they've joined one of such kind of organizations that I've mentioned, and you know people asking about their business and you know, like, what have you achieved? Where are you going to go? The person standing in front of them might have a huge organization that they've built from nothing, and then the entrepreneur or solopener kind of then starts getting caught up in I need to be like that, I need to get there Either. Actually, I don't think there's an either coming here, because I can't think of another one, but usually it's it's they kind of forget about themselves, their own journey, their own race.

Speaker 2: 36:32

One of my, an old friend of mine that I used to work with. She was based in New York. When you work for a really big American company it's, as you know, very, very sales-led, sales-focused, very competitive as well. And you know she I remember she won a very prestigious sales award within the company. She grew her clientele in her sales in a record space of time. I don't think anyone in the history of this organization had ever done it before. And she got up and stayed and and usually you were meant to give the big inspirational speech and so on. And the the one quote from her speech that I will never forget and I use it to this day she said I'm not really worried about what anyone else is doing. People ask me if I was out to beat the best person. I wasn't, I was just running my own race. She knew exactly what she wanted to do and what her part of the business needed to look like for whatever goals she had in her own private life, and she just put the blinkers on and didn't worry about anything else. And and you know I think that's it.

Speaker 2: 37:48

It's happened to me before as well. You know I've got carried away or I've had people who've come into quote unquote mental me and they've seen something in in my business and my brand that they think if it was them they could take it and make it much, much bigger. But when I sit down in quiet moments and I actually think about what I love to do because that is the whole point of this Do what you love doing and you'll never work another day in your life. That's where I want to get to and I think to myself. Well, actually, you know, having multiple stores all over the world and being responsible for that many people scares the living daylights out of me.

Speaker 2: 38:30

But when I'm sat with the CEO of a huge organization, just one on one, talking to them about the things that they want to achieve personally, how they want to look, how they want to feel, and then taking them on that journey to helping them to fulfill that, and then when I get event photos back from clients and I get feedback saying that they're so happy and they were so confident in the clothing that I made for them and that I did my job, I fulfilled the brief for them, that's where I get the satisfaction.

Speaker 2: 39:01

And, yes, I do get paid well for it. Maybe that's enough Right, and so I think you know what you said there was so important for anyone that's listening is you've got to figure your own shit out public and work out what it is that you really want and not worry so much about other people's perceptions and not worry too much about being seen or feeling like a failure next to someone who might be in your close network who is quote unquote far more successful than you because they've got 200 employees and they've got multiple offices and a big house and all of this sort of stuff. Would you say that it's advisable for people to kind of figure that out before they start on the Founders' Evolution journey, or is it something that they can figure out as they're going through that process?

Speaker 2: 40:02

Because at some point they've got to work out, kind of which recognize the level that they get to. They may not be going all the way through. It may be that, in line with their personal goals and what is right for them personally, that they're only going to be on that journey for a third of it or two-thirds of it. Going all the way through that to eventually scaling and so on is not going to be right for them.

Speaker 1: 40:27

Yes, there's nothing better about going to stage seven than going to stage two, right? It's kind of like saying I'm sitting in LA and I can go to Arizona and see the Grand Canyon, or I can drive all the way to New York and see the Empire State Building. New York's not better just because it's further. Right, it's not up until they're right. That's not what this is all about. It's about saying what do you want? Do you want to see the Grand Canyon? Then just go see the Grand Canyon, it's great.

Speaker 1: 41:01

So, yes, I absolutely believe that we have to have our own vision for it. I don't think you can necessarily have that from the very beginning, especially unchanged. So I think it's something that we want to review regularly. And one of the things that you'll find is you know, stage two, for all its challenges and difficulties again, is actually easier than stage three, and it's actually a lot easier than stage four.

Speaker 1: 41:26

Here's what happens if you don't really decide what you want. Right, for example, if you're saying, hey, I just want to be with folks, but instead you let yourself get pulled into. Wouldn't it be glorious if we had three stores in New York and Paris and London? You can build that, you can hire people who can show you how to build that, but it is so much harder to unwind when you realize three stores in this isn't actually what I want, right? That is so much more painful. You look so much more successful. You have stuff that you can brag about to other business owners. You might get people who can stroke your ego, but I work with folks every day in that stage and they are dying inside and that's not necessary.

Speaker 1: 42:19

So I think, to answer your point, I think it's something to think about early. I think it's something that you really want to revisit regularly once a year, once every couple of years and when you find yourself pushing up against these inflection points, when you find the pressure starting to increase the number, one thing for any founder is to make sure they're clear on where they're going, because that's what's going to unlock the creativity to solve whatever the problem is in front of you. Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: 42:50

God, scott, this is so, so fascinating. Really, I'm absolutely loving this, but obviously we've got a cool time in it at some point. Founders, evolution, people can go get a copy. I'm kind of thinking it's like the thing that you need to have like on your desk or in electronic format, so you've always got it with you just to kind of refer to you like you kind of spirit guide. How can people get a hold of it and how can people connect with you?

Speaker 1: 43:26

Yeah, it's a little like the matrix for founder's growth, right? It kind of changes the way that you see the world around you once it happens. So I intentionally made it really simple. There's lots of illustrations in the book to kind of demystify this process, and the very first chapter just walks quickly through the seven stages so you can have an idea what does this map actually look like? And then each stage is designed. So when you've got an idea hey, I'm in stage two, you can go right there to that chapter and drive in it. But yeah, it's a fantastic reference. Just as the journey continues to shape and evolve, how do you know when the stage changes? How do you know how you need to show up? Now, that's what it's designed to do. You can get it at scalearchitectscom forward slash founders, and we've actually made the digital version free for everyone. So head on over to scalearchitectscom forward slash founders, download your free copy.

Speaker 1: 44:19

And the feedback I've gotten from some of our early readers was when they went in they realized oh, I'm actually in. Let's call it stage two. Oh, there's only a couple of things we need to do in stage two and do them really well. There's all these other chapters of things that should do that I don't have to do, right. There's all these books I read that I don't have to pay any attention to. There's only a couple of things I need to do. They're saving, on average, about 10 hours of week and just stuff, right. Things that they were hanging on to that they shouldn't be hanging on to anymore, things that they'd adopted that they never should have been doing in the first place. So it's easily worth your time. It'll save you a massive amount of time from week one and go up from there, and I highly encourage anyone's founder business owner, someone who's leading an organization. It's just an essential roadmap to navigating that journey. Fantastic.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Written by someone who has been there, worked well, experienced it worn the t-shirt, has worked alongside businesses at all different levels and taken everything that he's learned over that vast amount of time. You look so young, by the way, scott. I can't believe how much experience you've come into such a short life. I mean, when do you turn 21?

Speaker 1: 45:40

I was going to say anyone watching knows I look like I'm about 22.

Speaker 2: 45:44

I'm hoping the beard helps a little bit.

Speaker 1: 45:47

It gives me at least a year or two. Yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 2: 45:51

You're walking it, by the way. I can see what you look like without it, but you're rocking that beard. I mean that is a full proper. We got it going on. We got it going on, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 46:03

Again, and it's not something I can't take credit for Just having that front row seat, seeing this happen so many times and just the bizarre I mean, you heard it the bizarre way I landed into entrepreneurism. I can't take any credit for that. I think you put anyone in that position and they're going to start to see some of what I've seen here. It's just been a wonderful opportunity to bring that to life and make it available to the rest of the world.

Speaker 2: 46:29

Yeah, and thank you so so much for your time today, for sharing your story and for giving us a bit of an insight into the founder's evolution and hopefully, for just interrupting enough of our listeners thinking, just enough to realize that there is hope. That's what we want to do. We want hope. We want people to be able to actually look at their current circumstances and, if they've been feeling a little bit down about things lately, to realize that there is a way. Thank you so so much for that. I need to ask you sorry I haven't been recording for a little while because I've also been quite sick, so you can probably hear it in my voice. I've got this thing. That is clearing out. You're my first recording back with the new year. Congratulations, have you had fun today?

Speaker 1: 47:21

I've had a blast today. It sets me up for. There's just one quick point that I want to make about this, because you hit something that's really important. I don't want to gloss over.

Speaker 1: 47:29

Yeah, sure, and that is one of the temptations when you actually know what the next stage is, when you actually know how to get there, or you can see what stage five really looks like, we have this propensity to put everything else on hold until we get there, especially as founders and visionaries and goal-oriented people. I can guarantee you there is no stage that it has the corner on joy. There's no stage that's like it's all of a sudden going to get better. In fact, if I were to go and talk to folks in stages five, six, seven, even stages three or four, about stage two, where you're at now, or if someone's in stage two right now, there are things about stage two they don't get to do anymore that they would probably some days give the world for. So there is something special that's available to you in every single one of these stages and if you learn to embrace the joy of now, the joy of your current stage, it makes everything else so much easier and so much more fulfilling.

Speaker 2: 48:33

Yeah, well, I am going to make sure all of those links are for all you guys and girls in the show notes. I'm just going to repeat that again for you. So that's scalearchitectcom. Go download your free copy of Founders Evolution. I am going to be doing that as soon as I'm off this school with Scott.

Speaker 1: 48:55

Roto. Thanks so much.

Speaker 2: 48:56

Oh no, you're so, so welcome and thank you lot. So much for joining Scott tonight. Do not forget we are on Instagram I'm still figuring out the point of that at Ten Room Talk, pogatoss. I know the point of that is so that you can get your episode updates. You know I love feedback. Email me at tenorintalkpodcastcom. I will put the links in the show notes so that you can connect with Scott as well. Remember to subscribe, rate and review, and this is so, so important. Remember, click that share button in your player to send this episode on to someone you know who might get some help or be inspired by what Scott discussed today. And if you enjoy Tenoring Talk and you want to support the show, you can do so at the link in the show notes. Have a great week, be good to each other. I'll see you on the next one.